Unfortunately, the poor souls that commited suicide were most likely troubled their entire lives. It is sad when someone thinks that suicide is the only way out.

Sceptic - This is an excellent article and speaks of just the tip of the iceberg. I have heard too many stories from friends and relatives about Viet Nam, not to know how war affects the average young man. Thank you for sharing.

Born Here - I am sure that many vets would forgive you for making such an ignorant statement, but it's precisely your attitude and a few other atitudes that makes it hard for these men to cope, let alone get help. I pray you never have to find out the hard way.

5 students from a high school in California jumped in front of oncoming trains on separate days but in the same stretch of track. Who gets blamed for this?

And the point of your story is? Perhaps I missed it...

Yes. Apparently you did.

One stroll down a city street per year by well meaning yet morally malformed side-liners fails to make up for the general lack of care our men and women get when returning from a war zone. If only lip service = medical servive...

Thanks for the post Skeptic. This is an unpleasant casualty of war that many don't wish to tread upon.

Observer,

So it was "wrong" of me to think that it is "sad" when someone thinks of committing suicide? You tell me then how am I supposed to feel then, Happy? I am sorry for being saddened by somone with suicidal thoughts, perhaps I should just be flogged in the middle of Endurance Plaza to be made an example of for showing signs of sympathy. Excuse the hell out of me!

skeptic,

How does the suicide numbers of the military compare annually to the overall population of the U.S. of typical military age? I have no clue to the answer, but am very curious if there is any correlation.

Robert Capp

BH, she was referring to your comment; "Unfortunately, the poor souls that commited suicide were most likely troubled their entire lives."

You try to minimize the impact of war on our young. Why?

Skeptic, Sad, so very sad. Semper Fi

Observer, ChuxxR,

I think I know why you guys are upset. The Blog Post I read doesnt give specific numbers as to "how many of the soldiers commited suicide" because of their "battle" experiences, I was not even thinking along those lines. When my son was in basic training three young soldiers attempted suicide, two were successful one was discharged on a medical afterwards. They had never seen any war, they obviously had mental issues before they went into service.

I don't try to minmize the impact of war on our young. I am however proud of them for standing up for what they believe in and enlisting. Don't misunderstand me war is a terrible thing regardless of what country is fighting it. I do feel that if our nation commits to a war the poloticians should allow our boys to win it. We sure as hell don't need another Viet Nam on our hands, which is exactly what we have in the middle east at present. If our boys must go, let them go win it and come home soon.

I personally knew men that went to war and were treated poorly by citizens when they got back here to the states. They were called baby killer, murderers, and worse. I won't ever allow that to happen to any military personel in my presence. To me the VFP marchers will be slapping the face of military men or women by their presence in our parade, but they have a right to do so. Whether or not they should excercise that right on veterans day is what is in question.

the military suicide rate same as population of the USA suicide rate the same...lol

im skeptic on that info.

AMericans4truth: What are the numbers and where did you find them?

"The Army hit a grim milestone last year when the suicide rate exceeded that of the general population for the first time: 20.2 per 100,000 people in the military, compared with the civilian rate of 19.5 per 100,000. The Army's suicide rate was 12.7 per 100,000 in 2005, 15.3 in 2006 and 16.8 in 2007."

source:

The Wall Street Journal, page A-15, Tuesday, November 3, 2009. (electronic edition) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125720469173424023.html

Dulce bellum inexpertis.

Thanks - I appreciate the info. Someone might compare the 2005, 06, and 07 rates as lower with the commander-in-chief at the time. Though I doubt that really had that much to do with the numbers, rather the earlier parts of the wars and now 8 long years later.

Robert Capp

Bob - PTSD, and its evil sidekick clinical depression, have been afflicting warriors as long as there have been wars. The best book I know on the subject is Jonathon Shay's "Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character."

The Iran-Afghanistan debacle is particularly injurious to mental health because there seems to be no clear objective (aside from keeping Karzai in power). Because of that, our troops have no idea how close they are to "victory" and going back home to stay. Add to that the possibility of redeployment back to Hell, again and again and again... Anyway, the scenario of coming home only to return again to the horror again has been my own personal nightmare for 42 years.

Insurgencies to rid one's nation of a detested foreign occupier are especially bloody and tenacious. Vietnam is a good example. It was militarily occupied first by China, then the Mongols (3 times), China (again), France, Japan, France (again) and finally the USA. Each empire left in defeat. Now look up the history of occupied Afghanistan.

skeptic, your last post is right on. The more undefined a war is and the more questions with no answers always leads to the troops doubting their mission and the reason they are there for. Unfortunately as we waffle for political purposes young men and women die. Is it fair to them? NO.

We should either heed the advice of the military commanders or pull out ASAP, make a decision and not one based solely on "electability"

Once the troops are back we should ensure that they are treated for any effects the war may have had on them. Heck it seems that anymore any time there is a fatality from any cause we close down schools, factories, etc and send counsellors in, why don't we have that for the military?

bob capp: I think you nailed it.

The troops are feeling like they have been abandoned by their commander-in-chief. That explains the increase in suicide rates.

We need to get out of Afghanistan. The question is not if, but HOW.

We can disagree on the how, but lets support our troops in the mean time.

The generals say they need reinforcements, lets not politicize this war. Lets execute the strategy, get the country turned around, then get out.

Born Here - Chuxx "got it". I would say that Loomis "got it". I know that Skeptic "got it". The effects of extreme trauma, ugliness, horror, evil lack of love, can have devistating effects (PDST) on a human being. Experience it once and it changes your life in the most debilitating ways, but be asked to go back into that hell, over and over again...is inhumane. You seem to think that only the "weak" experience this kind of effect, but until it happens to you... I suppose it is hard to blame you for your ignorance. Don't be offended by my use of this word...it just means to have a lack of knowledge. We should all try to understand others...

...Many of the VFP marchers may not be "protesting", only making a statement for peace, for which they ought to know. Those of us who like the idea of war, winning, etc...probably won't like the idea of "peace"

Well said, Loomis.

Yosemite: To be honest... wasn't it Rumsfeld who abandoned the troops by leaving them with shoddy equipment?

Yosemite - Regarding your comments of 6:37a.m....It feels like deja vu...it feels like Viet Nam...and I am having this very eerie sense of having "been here before"...

Observer,

For one that always preaches "We should all try to understand others..." you sure do pass judgment a lot. Never once did you ask what I meant by my comments, you just assumed you knew. Then you try to prove that you are so much better than me by being condesending over the word ignorance when you state " Don't be offended by my use of this word...it just means to have a lack of knowledge".

As I stated in my earlier post. I was not even thinking along the line of (PTSD) Post Traumatic Stress Disorder of battle weary veterans. I attempted to explain my thought process from my experience, but I guess you didn't want to understand me. So continue to make me an unintelligent ignorant monster, I have big shoulders I can take it. If I have already lived through the crap I have, an insult from you won't kill me.

It might not kill you but it sure looks like it smarts a bit. ;)

How quickly we turn this blog against each other or against the political parties or the commanders in chiefs.

Questions...What in the hell can we do to stop this? How can we help? What can I DO?

Born_Here,

I think Observer might have intended "ignorant" in the sense of "I am ignorant of the specific facts, so tell them to me." Ignorance in this sense is a temporary condition, not a permanent character trait.

How could you not be thinking of "PTSD of battle-weary veterans?" That was the subject of the initial posting; mental illness caused by the extreme repeated stressors of war and exceeding the human capacity to cope. The surprise of PTSD is that symptoms may not show up for years after returning home from a war.

Semper Fi.

"Wars are not paid for in wartime. The bill comes later." ~~ Benjamin Franklin

Roland: Check out: http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/helping-family-member.asp

It's a site from the VA dedicated to helping those with PTSD if PTSD is the problem. Gaging by the reasons for and symptoms of PTSD... warfare certainly hits a high mark on suicide.

Skeptic,

Where does it state that verbatum? I read it literally.

Born Here - I get angry sometimes because the price that some people have to pay for others indifference, gets to me. Call me a bleeding heart if you like. Whenever someone throws the "condescending" word at me, I know they value their pride more than the truth. Truth is what I pass judgment on and you would be hard pressed to find anyone who loves truth more than I do, even at my own expense. The Truth is better than I am...and I know it. You would be so lucky to be as little as me :-)

Born Here - an afterthought...Battle weary doesn't really describe what many of these guys go through. Fire off rockets, guns, what-have-you and then go in to see what your hands have done. People don't like to see the reality of it...they call it offensive. If the Auburn Journal wouldn't pull it, I would publish photos every single day of my life because I think people need to face the truth about what we so freely are willing to ask for, to vote for, to pay attention to. While you and I are sitting here blogging about it, some kid is in Afghanistan, now forced to do what many of them did not enlist for, what many of them were not told was the reality of this war we so easily cheerlead behind. At this very time, some innocent Afghani family is most likely wondering whether they will see the sunrise, their children are terrified and much of this is caused by our presence. Nobody wins :-(

Observer,

Here is the truth as I see it. I don't think that any of our boys should be in the middle east, but they are there. I hate the fact that we have to resolve our differences by war, but sometimes it happens (right or wrong). We must support our troops in any way, shape, or form, to bring them home safely. If they are worried about what goes on back at home how can they concentrate on staying alive? Poloticians need to stay out of military actions and let the military do what they are trained to do.

During the "Viet Nam Conflict" the protestors of the war committed dastardly, despicable acts upon service men at airports, churches, city parks, rallies, etc. This did the soldiers as much harm as PTSD. They were in a country fighting for a set of ideals they thought correct following orders of their superiors. I am sure that everyone of them desperately wanted to come home. When they finally got home they were treated like crap. Now they felt bad for the horrors that they had to endure in Viet Nam , and now how they were treated at home. They went away to fight for us, and we turned on them. I WIL NOT allow any military personel feel that way in my presence, ever! They fight for me, I fight for them. I honor them.

Now as far as our exchange earlier, you did not offend my with your choice of adjectives. I have been called worse than ignorant. What I was offended by is the fact that you, who claim to be so understanding, didnt even want to try and understand me.

".....and exceeding the human capacity to cope." --Skeptic

1942, 21 year old.

1965, 21 year old.

1986, 21 year old.

2009, 21 year old.

....Do any of these groups differ in their ability to not exceed the capability to cope?

.....any "Dear John" letters involved in these events?

Born here - Tell me something. Did you serve in Viet Nam? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Bosnia?...

Were you a war protester during Viet Nam? Do you know what most people were protesting? Do you know that the majority of protestors were the ones who were supporting soldiers, writing letters, making cookies, etc. while waging the war at home with our government? What possibly makes you think that most people, besides a few, were calling Viet Nam War vets, babykillers? You can't keep politics out of war because war is, by virtue of it's own nature, political.

I will forever keep sacred the trust that has been given me by a number of vets who have spilled their guts to me about what they have seen and what they have done. It is most alarming to most of them, the betrayal they experienced by their own government, during Viet Nam and even today. Nothing has changed in that way. The idealism you profess, is merely that. War is not an idealistic event, not for our soldiers, not for their families and certainly not for the innocent people caught in the middle

skeptic is putting an issue that is not in the main stream media and should be. Its not a good thing to see our men and women in uniform unhappy and killing themselves. They are not happy with there mission by any means. Many dont believe that there mission is worthy of American blood.

This needs to be talked about.

I always feel bad about any troops being killed... I am not as effected by those who commit suicide... Not sure why I feel this way. I think a % of ppl commit suicide... and it does not matter where or what they are in life! Not everyone is mentally stable! Really sad.

Born_Here - Perhaps I was sheltered or blind. I never experienced, or met any other veteran who experienced, the kind of disrespect you describe.

When I returned from DaNang to Travis AFB there were a small group of anti-war protesters outside the main gate, but they seemed sympathetic, not hostile. They were protesting Lyndon Johnson's policies in Vietnam. I recall seeing a sign shaped like a map of Vietnam; it said, "Not Bad Solders - Just A Bad War." I remember being grateful that our loneliness and our suffering hadn't been ignored, at least by these young people.

The Washington politicians who spoke of "the light at the end of the tunnel" only seemed to want to continue and increase the pointless savagery I experienced. But these young people welcomed us back home with flowers.

FYI:

According to a 2008 Rand study about 20 percent of returning U.S. soldiers have post- traumatic stress disorder or clinical depression. Only half of them receive treatment. I consider Rand's 20 percent figure deceptively low, as most soldiers fear the stigma of seeking help for mental illness and the effects of PTSD can remain hidden for years.

About 1.6 million U.S. troops have fought in both wars since October 2001, the Rand report said. About 4,560 soldiers have died in those conflicts, the Defense Department reported on its Web site.

Based on the Rand and the DoD figures, and the established suicide rates for similar patients who commonly develop substance abuse and other complications of post-traumatic stress disorder, ``it's quite possible that the suicides and psychiatric mortality of this war could trump the [number of] combat deaths,'' says Dr. Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health.

Post-traumatic stress disorder, also known as PTSD, is an inability of the brain to readjust to society after a major shock such as violent rape or combat. PTSD can remain dormant for months, years or decades before it surfaces and in many cases the sufferers never recover.

[source: Taneilain & Jaycox: Invisible Wounds of War: Psychological and Cognitive Injuries, Their Consequences, and Services to Assist Recovery.]

The afghan ppl have suffered SHOCK far longer than our troops! The russians shocked them... then along came the good old USA. So what is the suicide rate for them? Is the Afghan ppl better able to handle the SHOCK as that is all they have ever known as compared to a young soldier who got a dose of reality.... that others live with day in and day out! Just wondering.....

Found some interesting items....

In wars that the U.S. have been involved in since the end of World War II; the ratio of U.S. combat troops to combat service support and support have gone from 4 support soldiers to 1 infantryman to 7 support soldiers to 1 infantryman in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Also, because most CSS (Combat Services Support) troops are further from direct contact with the enemy and further from enemy artillery than the combat arms, fewer CSS troops are killed and wounded in action. However, when they do suffer attack, their ratio of battle fatigue casualties to battle casualties is typically higher than in the “combat hardened” combat arms.

Which made me think about this statistics a bit more.

Active duty soldiers include these 7 soldiers for every 1 infantryman. All part of the "Teeth to Tail" of Wartime operations. And since their ratio of battle fatigue casualties to battle casualties is higher than the combat arms.....it appears in todays modern US military structure we have more personel involved (7/1) and these folks appear more vulnerable to battle fatigue.

It may shed some light on why the suicide statistics, an emotional topic from any angle, is vulnerable to abuse by anti-war folks who fail to note the vary structure of our military today could produce active duty suicide on the rise, as opposed to the often provided reason that it is because the conflict is unjust, a lost cause stalemate, and more horrible than wars in the past (4/1).

(cont)

I also learned that 70% of the military suicides last year involved problems stemming from "personal relationships".

No statistics available on victims use or non-use of anti-depressants, alcohols, drugs, ...no clinical histories or bllod work.

I'm trying to be objective here but I don't think some REMF who gets a "Dear John" and kills himself belongs in a statistic demonstrating increased combat fatigue.

It's a seriouse enough issue, always has been, so much so I hope they are using solid instances and not playing political games with numbers. We got to take better care of our Vets.

Observer,

Sure... everything that I say now can be contradicted by your personal experiences. As I have stated in my previous posts "I believe that you arent' really interested in understanding my point of view" so to avoid any further conflict I quit, you win.

Skeptic,

When I was a kid my mother and father took me to San Francisco to meet a friend of theirs coming home from Viet Nam on leave. Several of his buddies and he were traveling together back to California on commercial flights. When the group of them got off the plane in San Francisco there was a big rawkus when a group of hippies started spitting on them and calling them baby killers, and what not. This led to an all out free for all between the soldiers and the hippies. I saw it first hand, I remember being in tow while running after my father told my mother to get me back out to the car and wait there.

The second instance was at a fair closer to home. We were sitting around the cattle barn when several hippies came up to Al (who was in uniform) sitting on the tack box eating his plate of food. They started yelling the same types of insults and obscenities and one of them reached out and flipped Al's plate of food up and smashed it on his chest. My dad and granfather picked up pitchforks and got the hippie pukes to leave.

The third instance I personally know of my uncle (aunts husband at the time) had a bag of human excrement thrown at him.

But I guess it never happened, you werent there.

Americans4truth - You are correct about mainstream media...they don't show much that doesn't fulfill someone's agenda. I have long had to go to educational tv, Link tv, Democracy Now and various print media to get real news. Even with that, one has to view thing objectively. Common sense helps one to discern.

lonewolf - Suicide comes to many, who were once stable and become un so. You obviously haven't done much inquiry in that area

Born Here - If you feel misunderstood, don't take it personally. I don't have but a couple buttons that push easily and you jumped on one of them. I won't apologize for the way I feel about war. You apparantly have had some distasteful experiences that have affected you in a different way. I can tell by the way you keep using the word "hippies" that you probably have a host of people that just "irk" you.

Afterthought - In war, there are many times, not good guys and bad guys, just people all "fighting". The guy you are shooting at, whether forced to or voluntarily going, also believes that you are the enemy. Perhaps he thinks you are his enemy because he can not find "God" in you. He also wants to protect his children, his wife, his country. The battlefields we, as Americans, usually fight on, are places where people often have not known much peace, much security. How terribly sad for them. When they have no hope in their own countries, we way too often won't let them in ours, although many of them would rather not leave their countries. People generally want to live in their own "homeland".

We, as Americans, have a much greater responsibility to others in the world, precisely because we have so much. We have the responsibility to make better moral decisions, better decisions as to who we put in office to speak for us, make the hard decisions. We must first, learn how to treat our own citizens then look within ourselves to see how we are treating others. We must set our selfishness aside, even for a moment, and think about another. It starts in our own households...

Mike, quit being a jerk. PTSD is a serious problem and you are trying to down play it's severity. A "Dear John" letter is a trigger sometimes. So is a third tour. People that believe in this war should enlist if they are of age. That the support that will do the most.

Mr. Guber - Where did you take your training in the etiology, expression and treatment of Post Traumatic Shock Disorder? Because you certainly have a lot of unique opinions about it.

So far, you have alleged soldiers who served in Afhanistan and Iraq who commit suicide:

- had pre-existing mental conditions;

- are not as emotionally stable as were troops in other wars;

- have too many non-combatants supporting them;

- have skewed national suicide statistics because statistics "is [sic] vulnerable to abuse" by anti-war types; and

- propose that faulty personal relationships are the cause, not a symptom, of clinical depression culminating in suicide.

BTW, you're lying about the "hippy" protester incident in San Francisco.

After I came back to "the World," I became active in the San Francisco Bay Area veteran's peace movement. An incident like that would have been big news. The movement demanded that any anti-war protest follow Dr. King's dictum:

"We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence."

It sounds to me like you saw a fight provoked by undercover police (probably FBI) posing as "hippie protesters" to discredit the movement. No need to be shocked, it happened all the time. We'd take photos as evidence, then go our peaceful way.

Pax tecum.

ChuxxR-

Jerk? For asking questions about the sample used for statistics? Questioning the impact of a 7/1 support ratio on a study? For not just flat out accepting that since two things are happening at once they are related? Guilty as charged, I guess, for being able to achieve some objectivity on the matter and asking questions.

We are talking about 1.4 million active duty personel.

Clearly it is a minority of them (14%?) that are the teeth of our modern military.

I asked simply if the entire 1.4 million was the sample and if so it shouldn't be used to support anti-war positions, but rather, as evidence we need to improve military resources for soldiers and vets and perhaps restructure duration and frequency of tours, from the teeth to the tail.

Those who want to use unrepresentative statistics to undermine our reasons for being at war are the jerks. I just want the soldiers and their familes to benefit from what the statistics represent...not opportunistic liberals who object to National Defense everywhere and everytime it is required of us.

I made it clear this is a seriouse issue.

I made it clear we have to take better care of our Vets.

That makes me a jerk?......Ok.....I'll be that guy for you....

Skeptic,

You'll toss any certifications and degrees I offer in the bottomless pit of Skeptic's "Things That Do Not Qualify", so no thanks.

And that's ok because a piece of paper and time served don't mean much to me either.

You have misrepresented my words rather blatantly....

I asked if there were any known pre-existing mental conditions in these cases....I did not say there were any.

I asked you if different generations cope might differently......I didn't say they did or did not.

I did not say there were too many non-combat support troops....I only gave the current ratio.

I did not say the statistics were skewed....I asked questions to find out if they might be.

I did not say "personal relationships" caused suicides....I noted that 70% of the investigation revealed this fact was involved.

You misrepresented my entire post....why?

You Lie.

I don't wanna talk to you no more. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

"I made it clear this is a "seriouse" issue?"

Jerk.

"...you're lying about the "hippy" protester incident in San Francisco." -Skeptic

That wasn't my post.

That was "Born-Here" 11/5 5:26AM

Mike, "a piece of paper and time served don't mean much to me" That about says it all.

BTW, all service members are part of a team and share the guilt and fear. One does not have to be in the front lines to have PTSD.

Supporting our troops means we will try to help with their wounds, physical and mental.

Chxx--

During my first year in Alaska, I was on a small boat and we were crabbing the S-East. I was a green-horn but learning fast. The skipper was a drunk old man who knew everything; and who was I to argue...it was his boat, he is the Captain. We set our pots in several coves and the skipper decided to anchor the skiff (small working boat we had) in a cove for the night while we were going to run north-west for a day to drop supplies off to a guy, spend the night, and then return the following afternoon and resume fishing.

Brand new skiff with inboard motor, hydraulic block, nice boat to work in and quick to run the crab back to the bigger boat. He throws an anchor in and ties it to the stern (back) of the skiff and prepares to leave. The weather said it was going to blow that night, gusts to 35mph. Since the skiff had a canopy I figured the wind would turn the skiff away from the anchor and then act as a sail of sorts. The rocks were only 30 yards away.

I asked the skipper if it would be better to tie it off on the bow so it would swing into the wind and he made it prefectly clear to me that he’d been doing this for 35 years and to just do as he says.

When we returned, the skiff was up on the rocks, 3/4 sunk and all torn up.

35 years of scrapping by doing things backwards.

Example #587,876 of why “time served” doesn’t mean much to me.

(cont)

"Supporting our troops means we will try to help with their wounds, physical and mental. " --Chuxx

And what about before and during their deployment?

If what you meant to say was "Supporting our troops ALSO means...", then of course I agree with you.

After I acknowledged PTSD as a serious issue you went on to accuse me of "trying to down play it's severity". When if fact I was trying to isolate it, defend it, from being used for petty political character assassination and opportunistic back stabbing of our justified military operations that are underway. Why mix this in with your hatred of a certain political party?

These soldiers where not drafted by Republicans and your support of them should be complete.

huh? is that your time served. Poor baby get scared. What's your point?

"And what about before and during their deployment?" Duh!

I think you are missing the crux of this blog.

I support the military. I have two nephews in Iraq and Afghanistan. Another is an instructor at Twenty-nine Palms. He can't return to the combat zone because of so much shrapnel and and a bolt or two. He got those in his 3 tours. He said he was following in me and my father's footprints when he enlisted in the Marines. Now he's trying to transfer to the Navy. They said they would let him return to the battlefield.

He feels at home there and all of his friends are there. Get my point?

Chux--

Your looking at what I'm saying with massive blinders on.

My "time served" statement from the very begining was not refering to military service.

I was stating that just because somehow claims they have been doing something longer than someone else does not automatically mean they are any closer to the truth of the matter than anyone else with less experience. Thus my silly story of a Skipper I once knew.

BTW, if anyone is acting like a "scared baby" perhaps tossing heavy words around and not signing your name to them is a good indication of who that is.

The crux of this blog?

Looks like a cut n' paste by a guy who has made it very clear on others posts that he believes America is being run by a bunch of blood thirsty sociopaths willing to throw American soldiers into a half-baked, greed driven conflicts as invaders, not liberators.

How do you feel about Skeptic's constant rants about the meaninglessness of your nephews deployments?

I can't thank them enough for their service and sacrifices...so much I don't see how throwing wild conspiracy theories and destructive allegations at the feet of their CIC is an offering of support.

Do you not agree with that?

I think you understand what I'm saying here but you'd rather fight about it?

No Mike, I don't understand. "America is being run by a bunch of blood thirsty sociopaths willing to throw American soldiers into a half-baked, greed driven conflicts as invaders, not liberators." Liberators? An invader by any other name...

BTW I know that skeptic has my nephews' back. You would do well to listen to what he has to say about PTSD.

Once a group of wounded Marines (Army and Navy veterans as well) were traveling by train. They were returning from war with their wounds and amputations and horrifying disfigurements. Some citizens wanted to honor them and formed a crowd and band with flags and all. When the Marines arrived at the station the band started their tribute and the crowd roared. When the Marines heard about the tribute they decided to get off the train and thank the citizens. However, once they revealed their injuries, the band abruptly stopped, the citizens gasped and could hardly contain their horror. They turned their backs and tried not to look at the wounded veterans. They were not ready to see the damage inflicted on our young by war. I don't have to tell you what the Marines felt like.

So do yourself a favor. Go to a Va hospital and talk to the vets, volunteer in your spare time. Don't take your attitude with you though. They don't want to hear it.

So we INVADED France on D-day June 44'?

So we INVADED Kuwait in 91'?

So we INVADED South Korea?

So we INVADED South Vietnam?

We are INVADING Iraq and Afghanistan?

I have no problem listening to anyone with knowledge and experience with PTSD.

But I do have a problem with those who take advantage of it to undermine our Military Leadership and National Defense.

You seem to want to refuse to see that's my point because it is easier for yopu to attack me if your able to put words in my mouth and slander my motives.

You will never believe the time I have spent at Va hospitals.

My "attitude" is appreciated 10-fold....and why wouldn't it be....for my attitude is one of respect, thanks, and complete 100% support of American soldiers and the campaigns they fought in. Who is being a jerk now?

Those are my experiences and I have my own reasons, and the guys I know would be sick that you are attacking me because what?

Because I disputed a few statistics....am wary of there abuse?

Do yourself a favor Chux.

Admit you don't know me at all and quit making negative assumptions about my character just to better support your attacks on me.

Quit adding to the toxic atmosphere that our soldiers are fighting a meaningless war grounded by greed and fueled by Republican psycosis.

That's what our soldeirs don't need to hear.

Our enemies thank you for debasing our Nation's resolve in defeating them...it doesn't do anyone else a darn bit of good.

MikeGubber,

I'm sorry. What was your point again?

BTW - - you wrote "our soldeirs." I think you were trying to spell "soldiers." Is that correct?

Where were you in '65 when my Marines took 72 percent casualties near the An Cuong village complex? Where were you when my company walked into a hill studded with bouncing bettys and the VC opened up with a mortar barrage? Where were you in 1966 when we were overrun by hard-corps NVA in a night monsoon storm and the few of us still alive hid beneath the bodies of our dead? Where were you during the Siege of Khe Sanh in 1968? Nobody back home told us about any of this. We knew. We were there.

Where were you, Mr. Gruber?

I was 2 years old....sorry I couldn't be of much help to you and the guys back then.

But I'm here now.

(530) 305 3962 if there is anyway I can be of help.

Mike, sorry I don't know you. I think you are stand up guy just from your comments and Greg Calac.

"Quit adding to the toxic atmosphere that our soldiers are fighting a meaningless war grounded by greed and fueled by Republican psycosis."

The soldiers already know this.

MikeGruber - that was a nice gesture. I see the point you were trying to make, I wanted to ask you to look at the other side of that coin. While I don't think it was your intent, you were minimizing the realities of PTSD by alluding to it being a propaganda tool of sorts for those who oppose the war and indicating that the problem actually points to other issues outside of the war. This is actually the propaganda. Please understand the impact of politics on the funding for diagnosis and treatment for PTSD. The cost of these wars surpass a trillion dollars, they want to cut costs. Redefining PTSD and substance abuse as moral/spiritual failings opens the door to cheaper"treatments." They stigmatize veterans seeking help, reduce benefits to veterans with PTSD, and then blame the soldiers for their own illness. It is well documented and you can ask soldiers what type of pressure there is to not admit to PTSD.

I did not serve in the military; however, I have PTSD due to sustained violence over many years. I wasted a lot of my life trying to pretend nothing was wrong - it didn't work. We owe it to these soldiers to not minimize or make excuses for the very real impact of what is happening to them, or deny those realities by only concentrating on what appears at the surface. Simply thinking "War is Hell" is no panacea for these soldiers, it does nothing to alleviate their pain or indicate any understanding of what they are feeling or help them know it's OK to seek help.

Minimizing?

There is no coin here....

I can't imagine one could find an edge on this anywhere.

My point was this, and this only.

Don't dull your swords on a straw man.

"The soldiers already know this."--ChuxxR

And it is not true.

Mike, I started to respond, as you did not use critical reading skills with my post, or maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. Then I realized it would be a waste of time, you won't get it. I kind of knew this yesterday too, but oh well, I tried. Have a nice day.

kittyv,

You can over-react in the wrong direction all day long and I can't stop you.

You're very good at it....

Step 1: Redefine.

Step 2: Attack/Blame.

Step 3: Attach "nevermind".

Step 4: Run away.

Mike - I'm not running away, nor did I attack you. I'm just not wasting my time having a discussion with you. We don't communicate well, clearly. Last time we exchanged comments I spent more time trying to explain what was actually being said in the previous post than getting anywhere with the issue. I don't consider that constructive dialog. You've had some kind of hostility towards me from the get go, as evidenced by these and other posts, so why bother engaging you further? I spend a lot less time on here than before so my visits have been and will continue to be sporadic, with such limited time I don't prefer to have to repeat and explain what I'm trying to say to someone who won't get it. You accused me of running away, so I responded, but the truth is this was a waste of both of our time and meanwhile the issue on the blog we are commenting on received less discussion than it deserved.

love, kittyv

Those who use PTSD in an attempt to discredit Bush, shame Republicans, and de-rail our Military and DOD efforts to maintain a strong National Defense are comitting a two-fold diservice:

First, it minimizes PTSD from being treated as seriously as it should be.

Second, it compounds the fog of war that no soldier benefits from.

That's my opinion.

No "critical reading skills required."